Against Me!

No matter what show you went to, there always seemed to be one general consensus concerning Against Me!‘s Canadian tour with The Flatliners and Young Livers, and that is that the band – and front man Tom Gabel especially – were as happy as they’ve ever been. I talked to friends who saw them in Edmonton, Calgary and Winnipeg and each and everyone of them agreed: Against Me! had put on a show with unmatched enthusiasm, energy and happiness. Hell, just look at the photos pasted throughout this interview and you’ll see a constant smile plastered across Gabel’s face as he screams into the microphone.

With the release of their new album, White Crosses, Against Me! have hit their stride and are reveling in it. They don’t really care what you have to say about them; after all, people have been calling them sell outs since they left Plan-It-X and signed to No Idea Records and nothing has changed since. The Floridian four piece are out there every day doing what they love and they truly seem to be loving it. Even during our quick conversation, Gabel was in top form. He was smiling, energetic and joking the entire time – dropping jokes, laughing and just having a good time as we talked about the tour, his un-cuttable hair, anarchist ideologies, punk rock contradictions, the band’s planned re-releases, the myth and mysteries of the rock star pedestal, and – most importantly – the technical inaccuracies of The Book of Eli. Yes, the Denzel Washington movie.

So read on and don’t be afraid to be just like Gabel and crack a smile or two.

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Bobby:  Starting with the basics, today is the second last day of this Canadian tour with Young Livers and The Flatliners – how’d it go?

Tom: It went great man. I mean, we still have some dates in the States after this. We’re going down to play this festival in LA called EpiCentre or whatever. So we’re playing a Montana show, an Idaho show and a couple other shows after that. But yeah man, fucking every time we come up here in Canada I feel like it’s getting better and better. It’s always good times; and fortunately too, the weather has been pretty favourable.

Bobby: Which is good because normally you guys end up coming by through the winter.

Tom: Yeah, and each time we do it we say “we’ll never do that again” but inevitably we come back in February or March.

Bobby: The EpiCentre show should be pretty interesting. I mean, Blink 182, Black Pacific, Korn, Eminem. It’s a pretty varied line up.

Tom: Yeah, it should be weird. I mean shows like that are always just kind of great for the spectacle of it all. Looking back and kind of observing.

Bobby: Is Andrew back on this tour or is he still back at home with his new baby?

Tom: He’s back.

Bobby: He’s back?

Tom: Yeah, yeah.

Bobby: Speaking about Andrew, I know in April you did a bet with him saying you weren’t going to cut your hair for six months. Still going strong with that?

Tom: As you can see, my hair is still pretty fucking long and only getting longer. I have until October 31st before I can cut my hair.

Bobby: So you’re almost there.

Tom: Very close. At this point I don’t even care anymore [laughs].

Bobby: Last time you guys were here, you opened for Billy Talent and Alexisonfire. That was in March before White Crosses even came out, although two days after it leaked online; but on the set I found it interesting because you guys played pretty much only White Crosses songs and then two old ones. What made you play all new songs even though the record wasn’t legally available yet?

Tom: Well, I mean we mixed it up each night. We played kind of a different set and everything; but with tours like that, you kind of assumed – and I think it’s a pretty much correct assumption – that the majority of people there have never heard of us before. They’re Billy Talent fans; they’re Alexisonfire fans or whatever. And so it kind of gives you the freedom to go out there and play whatever you want because everything’s new to everybody. I mean, I think we only had like a thirty five minute set list on that tour so for us, that’s like ten songs – maybe eleven songs. So that kind of limits how many songs you can play unfortunately. So we tried to play a couple old songs, but in all honesty we were most excited about playing new songs because we just wanted to.

Bobby: Fair enough, fair enough. I know on this tour you’ve been giving out two pairs of tickets to almost every show on Twitter. What made you decide to do that?

Tom: Well, whenever we have extra guest list spots, it’s stupid to just have them just go to waste. Why not just give them out to people?

Bobby: So you obviously use Twitter quite a lot, do you ever think it kind of eliminates the mystery behind the band and there’s just too much information out there?

Tom: I do; in a lot of ways. I think in some ways, some of those sites cheapen it in a way. It always amazes me that some of the bands that I’ll search on the internet and find that they have MySpace pages and Twitter accounts; bands that aren’t even together anymore. Like The Beatles have a fucking MySpace page.

I’ve been doing a lot of research recently because I’m interviewing Steve Ignorant from Crass and Steve Ignorant has a Twitter account and a fucking Facebook page and a MySpace page. [laughs] I’m just like…. I mean, it makes sense. I have one, so why wouldn’t he? But something about it is kind of odd.

Bobby: Well the example I always bring up with that is, of course, Brand New. I mean Brand New does nothing. They don’t do interviews, they don’t do Twitter, MySpace, they don’t even do press photos. So there still is the mystery behind that band which kind of makes it intriguing in some ways.

Tom: For sure. The kind of way I try to balance it out though is thinking that in looking at those sites is not a permanent end all of the current type of way that media is done but it’s an alternative to it and I really see it going in that direction in the future. I mean a lot of the times, what’s so frustrating about being in a band is you feel like there’s these people who act as if they’re gatekeepers. Editors of big named magazines and stuff like that where you almost have to kiss these fucking brass rings in order to get the name of your band and what you’re doing out there. Things like Twitter, Facebook or MySpace, they just levelled the playing field in that there is no one that you have to ask permission to or be so lucky as them to bestow you their attention. You can just do it yourself.

Bobby: You mentioned earlier that you’re going to be interviewing Steve Ignorant from Crass, how did that all get set up? I think it’s for Big Cheese Magazine?

Tom: Yeah, Big Cheese. I know he’s doing some shows in October-ish or whatever, the Last Supper or whatever event where he’s playing a bunch of Crass songs with a band; so I’m guessing that it’s in support of that that he’s doing a bunch of press and everything. But they just asked me if I wanted to interview him and, I mean, Crass is one of my all time favourite bands…

Bobby: So you’re getting pretty pumped for that? Getting all your questions ready?

Tom: Yeah, I think I watched probably about two hours worth of videos on YouTube last night doing research.

Bobby: Going back to this tour, right now you actually have Franz Nicolay on tour with you guys.

Tom: He actually isn’t on this tour.

Bobby: He’s not on the Canadian tour?

Tom: He’s getting married in a couple weeks or something like that.

Bobby: So you decided to give him a bit of a break.

Tom: [laughs] Exactly.

Bobby: One thing I found interesting was I watching your performance on JBTV is that while a lot of your new songs on White Crosses do have some keyboard elements to them, it was very weird hearing Pints of Guiness with keyboards in it. So does Franz Nicolay, when he is on tour, does he add keyboards to a lot of the songs? How does it go?

Tom: Well usually, on Pints in particular, he plays the accordion. I can’t remember but I guess he did on JBTV play the keyboards; I think his accordion was just broken that day or something like that. It’s been interesting because when we finished making White Crosses, we knew we wanted to bring someone out with us to kind of fill in some of those parts. So there was a lot of trial and error in the people that we brought out with us. At first we tried an approach where someone would just come up, play on certain songs and then walk off stage. That felt kind of weird, that there was this guy that would just get up there and disappear. Franz is just such an incredible musician that he could just come up with his own parts for every song and that felt a lot better than having someone – again – just appear and disappear. 

Bobby: Speaking about the JBTV performance, the interview you guys did with Brendan Kelly I found pretty interesting; particularly the one part where you were talking about how you write the songs – where you do the lyrics before the music because of the cadence and the unlimited syllables compared to the limited amount of chords. Have you always done it that way or is that more of a new thing?

Tom: Well, I mean, I think I said even then, it’s never like a science. Each song has a different birth if you will; but that’s my general approach. Sometimes I’ll come up with something like “oh, that’s kind of a cool chord structure” or “that’s a cool riff or melody” and I want to fit lyrics into it; but it’s always a lot more difficult for me to do that then it is to just write a tangent and then fit music around it.

Bobby:  That’s something I never really think about. You read more about people who normally write the music first and then the lyrics, so when you said that I was like “oh, that’s kind of interesting.”

Tom: Well some bands do, you have the one guy who writes the music and the other guy writes the lyrics and stuff like that; but for me that’s just always kind of the way I’ve gone around it.

Bobby:  Now, Brendan Kelly, who did the interview with you guys; he has, of course, his blog The Bad Sandwich Chronicles, which is fascinating to read.

Tom: And hilarious [laughs]

Bobby: Did you ever read the one where he defended you guys?

Tom: Yeah, I did actually.

Bobby: What did you think of that?

Tom: I mean, I thought it was hilarious. Brendan has quite the way with words. [laughs]

Bobby: My favourite part was the example that if somebody’s dad came home and said “I turned down a promotion because I love doing middle management accounting so much”, the guy would slap him and say “dad, you’re an idiot! Take the promotion.” And yet in punk and music, it’s kind of expected to turn down the promotion. Why do you think that is?

Tom: I don’t know. I mean, it’s just the way some people are. I guess you’ll have to ask people with that kind of attitude.

Bobby: That’s kind of the way it’s been for your entire career. When you signed to Fat you were called sell outs, when you signed to Sire you were called sell outs, now with White Crosses. You’re always getting the continual backlash; but I remember reading an interview that Thomas Barnett of Strike Anywhere did a while ago. He was always asked about his opinion on bands like you guys, Rise Against, Anti-Flag signing to major labels. He always said “I can’t give an answer because I’m not in their shows, I don’t know anything about it.” But he did comment about the fans reactions – particularly the Against Me! fans reaction to you guys. Like slashing your tires, holding protests shows, stiff like that. He said he doesn’t know what makes somebody hold in a band in such a lime light and hold them to such a strict ideal and won’t let them evolve or change. What do you think it is that makes somebody hold onto a band in a certain lime light that won’t let them ever escape their perceived notion of what they are?

Tom: I don’t know. I have no idea. But it is an interesting phenomenon none the less; and really like, for me, I think that’s always kind of been the way it is for my band – [and] that’s what made it, initially, always so ridiculous for me. I mean, if we hadn’t gotten the back lash when we moved from Plan-It-X to No Idea, from No Idea to Fat Wreck Chords, then I would’ve taken it a different way if all of a sudden there was a back lash when we signed to a major label. But when we made moves when we were still an indie band, quote unquote, and there was still that kind of back lash, it immediately devalued any kind of argument for moving to a major label. It’s like well if you’re going to have that kind reaction when we’re doing this that’s completely illogical, then there is no logic for your argument the other way either.

It’s just you guys obviously – you guys, I don’t know who specifically I’m refereeing to but you in the general public – obviously have just have this perception that is false. I mean, the thing that’s frustrating to me too is that it just goes against the logic of punk rock or anything that we’ve ever tried to stand against. Which is, I guess, thinking for yourself and not being a fucking moron. I mean, in a lot of ways…yeah, I don’t know, I’m going off on a tangent.  Sorry. Next question. Moving on.

Bobby: Well, it’s not like you guys are pulling a Sex Pistols and releasing your own perfume. That, I think, is a little odd…

Tom: I guess we’ll cancel plans for our new perfume. [laughs]

Bobby: [laughs] In a way, that’s kind of what your single, I Was A Teenage Anarchist, is about. How when you’re more a teenager and younger, you kind of see the world in this black and white imagery: this way is the right way, this way is the wrong way; and people get in the mindset of “this is my opinion, you can’t change it no matter what.” Do you think that’s kind of detrimental to, maybe even the punk scene as a whole? Where you say “this is what punk is” and you can’t evolve that?

Tom: Well, the interesting thing to me too – about that song in particular – and we’ve gotten a lot of criticism and flack from former fans or whatever for that song, is that when I was writing it – even once I became aware that people were going to perceive it in a certain way – it didn’t seem odd to me that I was writing a song that was hyper-critical of the punk scene because for me, the bands that I’ve always been into have been that way. I mean, like, talking about Crass again with a lyric like “anarchy’s become another word for got ten p to spare, another token tantrum, another cross to bear.” That’s essentially saying the revolution is a lie right there – that line. Or Chumbawamba saying things like “give the anarchist a cigarette because that’s as close as he’s ever going to get.” I mean, I grew up listening to punk bands that were saying “fuck the punks, fuck this movement, fuck this scene” yet they were just as much spear heading it at the same time. So it never seemed odd to me to write a song from that approach while other people take it like I’m fucking their mother or something like that.

Bobby: I liked how you put it in the essay about the single, where you said “for if it’s heresy to say ‘fuck anarchy’ then anarchy as become just another flag and I say burn it with the rest of it.”

Tom: Exactly. That’s exactly what it is. People elevate it to this sacred cow type thing where, again, no logic is introduced to the dialogue or anything like that. And the human element is completely gone where people’s criticism of us a band is often based on the idea that by growing, your elevating yourself to some kind of rock super stardom. But their attitude towards us totally alienates us and puts us on that pedestal because you’re not treating me as you would a normal human being. I’m someone that the average person who listens to our band doesn’t know. They’ve never met me, they’ve never had a conversation with me yet they’re super hyper-critical and judgmental of me as a person and would say things that you’d never say to a person that you meet on the street. Which is completely creating that dynamic, I’m not creating it.

Bobby: In a way, that kind of goes back to the perceived notion of Twitter and MySpace how you befriend somebody on Facebook or follow them on Twitter and you’re like “oh, I’m this person’s friend now” even though you’ve never actually met. So you follow a band through their creations, you connect to their music but now with all these other social media things, you kind of feel you know them on a more personal level and then you, in a way, feel you’re allowed to critique them even though you don’t actually know them on a personal level.

Tom: For sure. But I guess you know, just even thinking about it now, is maybe that’s a good thing about those things. Talking about destroying the mystery, you’re destroying the myth and a myth isn’t reality. So being able to connect on that real of a one on one level, in a way you’re almost bringing a more human element to it in a way. Even though it’s completely based on computers and through the internet and everything like that. But if you’re destroying a myth that isn’t reality, then I say all the better for it.

Bobby: Yeah, then it does kind of make it more realistic in a way. It’s “this is what we are; we’re not what you believe you are.” Anyway, I love the line in “I Was A Teenage Anarchist” that goes “I was a teenage anarchist, but the politics were too convenient.” Do you think that there are times where people will just hide behind the anarchy flag or the political punk movement and just basically use that as a crutch to support their ideals as opposed to opening their mind to other possible ideas?

Tom: Sure, I think that that’s maybe, in a lot of ways, a youth based thing. And in talking about that line, it’s like someone who takes a stand point where it’s like “I’m fine with eating out the trash. I’m fine with dumpster diving and I’m fine with living this type of lifestyle, this is all comfortable for me and I’m fine for having these things; so everyone else should conform to my idea of the way things should be in the world.” Those are very convenient politics. Not everyone can adapt their life, or even wants to, to someone else’s’ vision of it; and that’s kind of the essence behind that line.

Bobby: It’s the whole catch 22 of if all the anti-conformists start dressing the same, acting the same, thinking the same – are they really still anti-conformists or just conforming to something else?

Tom: Exactly and that’s been one of the main problems with the punk scene throughout the years. That it does become a uniform in a lot of ways and in order to fit into the punk scene, you have to do these certain things. When it shouldn’t be about fitting in, because what initially drew most people, I’m sure, to the punk scene was a feeling of not fitting in anywhere else.

Bobby: Now, White Crosses did evolve a bit lyrically. To me, New Wave was kind of an attack on the music scene with songs like New Wave, Stop, Up The Cuts and White People For Peace. Where as White Crosses, to me, felt a lot more introspective and personal with songs like Bamboo Bones, Spanish Moss, Ache with Me, We’re Breaking Up. Was that kind of intentional to go kind of more introspective and personal?

Tom: For sure. I mean, I thought that I’d kind of tackles those topics you were talking about on New Wave and Searching For A Former Clarity. I was at a point where it was like “what else can I really say about these subjects?” Time to kind of move on and think about other things.

Bobby: One of my favourite lines in the album is from Ache With Me. It goes “Do you feel the same sense of defeat? Have you realized all the things you’ll never be?” The turn of phrase is just fantastic. I’m just wondering, what was your mind process – what was that line about?

Tom: I think, in a lot of ways, it’s pretty self explanatory. I think you get to a point where it’s like you realize that it’s like “this is who I am. There’s nothing I can do to change that.” And it’s like, as far as even extending that to other people’s criticism of me or of my band. It’s like “okay, if you think I’m a sell out. Okay, if you think I’m a piece of shit. Okay, whatever you think about me – fine. What can I do about it?” I’ve made the decisions I’ve made in my life, I can’t change those things. So what am I supposed to do? I have no choice but to continue living. That’s just the way it is.

Bobby: Yeah. This is who I am, this is where I’m going; it’s who I am.

Tom: Yeah. It’s like I have to come to a point where I accept that. There’s nothing you can do about it.

Bobby: I’ve also read that you guys were thinking about possibly re-releasing Vivida Vis; is that true?

Tom: Yeah, I mean that’s been one of those back burner projects for years now and it’s always just something that like – that in particular is such an undertaken, you make a little bit of progress each time you have a break from the road.

Bobby: What’s making it such an undertaken to get this re-released?

Tom: Because they’re all four track recordings. Like literally cassette four track recordings. So it means going through hundreds of fucking tapes and figuring out what there all is. Because I want to not only release Vivida Vis but all the other stuff too. I mean there’s tons of unreleased stuff that’s out there and it really means going back through and fixing it all up.

Bobby: I know in an interview you did with PunkNews you said you were working on a demos album of Searching For A Former Clarity, kind of like you did for the Eternal Cowboy. Is that still in the works too?

Tom: Yeah; that’ll probably actually be out maybe early next year. That’s more of the next thing in line as opposed to Vivida Vis and all that stuff.

Bobby: What’s making you decide to release the demo versions of The Eternal Cowboy and Searching For A Former Clarity?

Tom: Really, a lot of it had to do with Warren leaving the band. It felt like, okay, well Warren’s left the band. There’s a wealth of material that he played on that is just sitting there. If people have any interest in hearing it, I’d like to go ahead and do that now as opposed to waiting ten years and fucking rehashing it. I’d like to just get it out there, be done with it and move on with life.

Bobby: Like I know you did an entire demo session of White Crosses with Warren on drums; is that going to see the light of day eventually?

Tom: I would like it to, but in all honesty I don’t know what will be possible with Warner Brothers.

Bobby: Yeah; because that’s not quite as easy compared to working with Fat Mike.

Tom: Exactly.

Bobby: I know you said you guys have a lot of bsides. I think you have two b-sides left over from the White Crosses sessions, not counting the four you released on the deluxe edition.

Tom: Yeah.

Bobby: Do you have any plans for those ones?

Tom: Something, yeah. I mean we also did an acoustic session too where we recorded acoustic versions of a bunch of the songs from White Crosses.

Bobby: Didn’t Jon Gaunt play violin on that?

Tom: Yeah, he did. And we’ve been talking about trying to do– well we’re trying to do a split seven inch with the UK band Crazy Arm that we’re touring with in the fall. So two of the songs will probably be on that seven inch and then we’ll just doll it out in bits and pieces here and there.

Bobby: Okay, cool. Just one more question. I’ve read that you’re kind of a movie fanatic right?

Tom: Yeah.

Bobby: I think you keep a list of what movies you watch, if I’m not mistaken.

Tom: I do. Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

Bobby: So do I, because I’m obsessed. I think as of last Friday I had seen 215 movies this year.

Tom: But see, with your list do you count movies that you’ve already seen or only like “this is the first time I’ve seen it.”

Bobby:  No, it’s just like “I’m watching a movie today, it’s on the list. This movie today, it’s on the list.”

Tom: Okay, got’cha.

Bobby: So my question is, what are some of your favourite movies you’ve seen recently?

Tom: Favourite movies… See, my problem with being a movie fanatic though is I’m not the type of movie fanatic who’s a snob. I’ll fucking watch anything. You know? [laughs] Last night I watched the Book Of Eli – Denzel Washington.

Bobby: That wasn’t too bad.

Tom:  It wasn’t too bad; my main criticism of it is that they expect you to believe that it was like thirty-five, forty years into the future that a fucking third generation iPod would still be holding a charge after all those years. They don’t work after three years man! Fucking thirty five years into the future, you’re kidding yourself. [laughs]

Shit, I don’t know man. I haven’t watched anything good recently to be honest. I watched The Book of Eli recently, I watched the fucking A-Team which was horrible, I watched Get Him To The Greek which wasn’t bad.

Bobby: I haven’t seen that one yet.

Tom: It wasn’t bad. I mean, I know people have such a problem with Russell Brand.

Bobby: Yeah, I don’t like him.

Tom: Yeah but the character he played works for him. It’s almost like he’s typed cast, you know?

Bobby: What annoys me about Get Him To The Greek and why I didn’t want to see it is because it’s a spin-off from Forgetting Sarah Marshall.

Tom: You didn’t like that?

Bobby: No, I did.

Tom: Okay, alright.

Bobby: But Jonah Hill plays a different character. You can’t have a spin-off with the same actors but they’re playing different characters.

Tom: I didn’t even think about that, that’s a really good point. Yeah.

Bobby: That was what annoyed me about it. Because Forgetting Sarah Marshall I found comical, and Russell Brand was good in that but Jonah Hill playing a different character just didn’t sit well with me.

Tom: Although, I gotta say there’s one scene in that movie, Get Him To The Greek, where Puff Daddy’s like the label head and he’s sitting in a room with all the A&R guys and it was just such a perfect like “yeah, that’s pretty fucking spot on right there.” [laughs] But yeah, again I don’t know if I’ve seen anything good recently to be honest.

Bobby: Cool, well thank you very much. Do you have any final thoughts you’d like to add?

Tom: Nope. Just thanks for the interview.